From: blake-d-request@albion.com Sent: Thursday, November 21, 1996 7:17 AM To: blake-d@albion.com Subject: blake-d Digest V1996 #134 ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blake-d Digest Volume 1996 : Issue 134 Today's Topics: Re: Blake's Characters: Ahania et al unrevised and unrepentant Who begat who? Re: The Goddess Fortune in-you-know-where. Re: Urizen Question Re: Who begat whom? Re: Urizen Question Re: Urizen Question Re: Urizen Question Re: Blake sighting: Island in the Moon, videorecording Re: Urizen Question Re: Urizen Question Re: Nassr e-text website Re: Urizen--a dismal stupor? Unspecified Plate Re: Blake's Characters: Ahania et al -Reply mutual forgiveness ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:18:05 -0800 From: Steve Perry To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Blake's Characters: Ahania et al Message-Id: <329215FD.41A2@infogenics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzanne Araas Vesely wrote: > As far as Blake has express empathy for the sexes, I think that you > really need to go back over some of te characterizations of the feminine > in BLake that are in _Jerusalem_. True, there are empathic things, but > they are not so readily to be found as passages which show women as > confused, victimized, or mean, like Vala. You need to consider that part > of the whole of Blake. I am not interested in using it to question > BLake's stability, but I am asking what he is _doing!_ > > Try this quote, for example. I think there is an explanation in context, > but just look, ;for once, at the emotional impact, in this statement > written by Blake next to his illustration of the goddess Fortune: > > The hoe of a Shit house > The Goddess Fortune is the devils servant ready toKiss any ones Arse." > (Erdman, 689) > > Or go back and reread "Thou mother of my mortal part..." > > Or reread the night of Enitharmon in Europe, when she glories in teaching > the little girl secresy. > > Feminists have argued that there is an emotional charge behind the > "symbolic" in anyone's writing. I think that this is a legitimate > issue to raise. I think that much, but not all of BLake, can be > understood symbolically or historically. But Blake is not my God, nor do > I believe that he would want me to make him his God. He speaks of his > own shortcomings, shows them all too clearly in his private notebook, but > accepts that I think that most of Blake's depictions of masculine figures are nothing to write home about either. Without counting, I am sure there are as any equally sullied comments about men or there mythic counterparts. Who is counting? I think too, it could be argued that Blake the writer is doing a fair amount of personal "psycho therapy", soul searching and spiritual investigation, wherein he encounters the feminine aspects of himself and sees those aspects in traditional terms as compassionate, (not in the Urizenic sense), loving and nurturing, and therefore finds in those elements the essence of salvation. Yet even they are sullied in their fallen state. Creative as the man was, he should not be reviled for not overthrowing a very long tradition of choosing feminine figures to represent those traditional "feminine" characteristics. Read Wilheml Dilthey reagarding historicity. Don't get me started on objectivity and history! Suzanne, you are right about the risk stamping things monolithically, terms like chauvinist, misogynist, or feminist, do tend to throw out the baby with the bath water. Thus my frustration with, as I call it, agenda based criticism, and my, albeit impolite rant at the end of my last post... "I suppose though one could make the argument that Blake is an atheist after reading MHH, and a vivisectionist after reading "The Tyger", and a Pederast after reading "A Little Girl Lost". " ... my point being -ism based anything creates extremism (<-see ). I am certain that this is not your motive, nor is it my interest to see it expunged. I hate blanket assertions, (even though I am guilty of making them) and the industry that they tend to foster. But as this thread has proven "Roses are planted where thorns grow." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:28:02 -0500 (EST) From: bouwer To: blake@albion.com Subject: unrevised and unrepentant Message-Id: <199611192228.RAA01620@host.ott.igs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK, OK. After unsuccessfully trying to force my husband to apologize, I have decided to take part of the blame. (He did, however, genuinely not know that the newer Erd- mans had different page-numbers.) He did of course know that the page number he was looking at in the Concordance was the Keynes page number.That is how he found for me the quote in both the Erdman and Keynes editions that we have (Our Erdman is the fourth printing (1970) of the 1965 Erdman.) So, today I learnt something useful. And today I learnt to trust my Ahania-intuitive thinking. The Male is a Furnace of beryll; the Female is a golden Loom. Old-E 146, good ol' K 623 Gloudina Bouwer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:13:18 -0800 From: george@nowhere.georgecoates.org (George Coates) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Who begat who? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Who begat who? Convincing evidence that important and celebrated artists have long been creating while under the influence of William Blake turns up often but definitive proof is not always easy to find. Both Huxley (The Doors of Perception) and Morrison (The Doors) are ever eager to credit Blake however little they may actually owe him, while artists like Burroughs and Joyce are more likely to disown their fathers to better claim their inheritance. Can artists, painters or poets who acknowledge little spiritual union or creative connection to their artistic predecessors nonetheless be stylistically, emotionally or otherwise linked to them without express physical proof? The influence of one artist on the creative output of another may be intangible and impossible to accurately map however obvious to the casual observer. To some degree the question of who begat who is always open to speculation. To help reveal sympathetic linkages between the artists of suceeding generations and Blake's greater cultural influence at large it might be useful to speculate freely on Blake's legacy with less regard for the rules of evidence and to rely more on baseless feelings, wild hunches, and the unsubstantiated good guess. Any help the list can provide in filling in the blanks is wondrously appreciated. 1. Though no direct connection may exist the work of ____________ can be linked to William Blake by virtue of _________________. 2. It would be unlikely for even a knowledgeble public to have been able to comprehend ________ without first having known something of Blake's work, particularly ______ because _______. 3. Blake is to __________what ___________ is to ____________. and 4. Blake begat___________ who begat _________ who begat _________ who begat _____________... GC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:17:27 -0600 From: tomdill@wc.stephens.edu (TOM DILLINGHAM) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: The Goddess Fortune in-you-know-where. Message-Id: <96111919172774@wc.stephens.edu> The Fortune passage occurs on page 668 of the 1970 revised printing of the 1965 edition of Erdman (I don't have my copy of the 1965 volume handy, but it is probably close in that, as well). The same passage occurs on page 689 of the 1982 "Newly Revised Edition" which is the one with the MLA "Approved Edition" imprimatur. I suspect that most printings since then continue the same pagination. Page numbers vary from edition to edition, which is why we try to remind students to be precise in their citations. Tom Dillingham ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:41:10 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Ruegg To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Urizen Question Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Susan, I was at the NASSR conference also. Did you present a paper? I agree with your observations about mailing lists like this one being resources for students, as well as potential sources of plagiarized material. This is why I spoke in terms of restraint. As you point out, these resources can present teachers with a real problem--we can't be on _every_ list. I don't have any problem with you giving Alex some guidance in thinking through the question--in fact, I appreciate it. The [First] Book of Urizen is a difficult poem, to grossly understate the matter. Best, Bill * * * Bill Ruegg http://www.ucet.ufl.edu/~bruegg/ "The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction." --Will Blake ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:23:39 -0500 From: WaHu@aol.com To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Who begat whom? Message-Id: <961119232337_1783420685@emout10.mail.aol.com> "As for W. Blake, I think that this means Wilhelm Blake." -Wallace Stevens- Collected Letters 813. Hugh Walthall wahu@aol.com p.s. As for William Blake, his father is John Milton and Blake's greatest truest progeny is the sublime Geoffrey Hill. There are oodles of guys and dolls who wannabe the vrai descendent of the Cockney Potentate-- but the blood tests all come back negative. It's a Boo-dist thing: if you want to be the great Heir of the Master, and set about it, you might as well title your Collected Poems "Snowball's Chance" OR "A Hill of Beans". If however you reach a state where you forget you ever knew of the Master, let alone read her works,...You could be close. No guarantees. All real quests are dicey. Banners avec Strange Device, and all like that there. Excelsior. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:45:55 -0600 (CST) From: Arlene Jay Petty To: blake@albion.com Cc: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Urizen Question Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Bill Ru > > I agree with your observations about mailing lists like this one being > resources for students, as well as potential sources of > plagiarized material. This is why I spoke in terms of restraint. As you > point out, these resources can present teachers with a real problem--we > can't be on _every_ list. Dear Bill, Please excuse my intrusion into this dialog, but since you went public with your opinion, I will also. Although I am just a "lowly" worm (student) I must speak out against any presumption you may have that lists like this one are resources for students. I don't know what your university is like, but where I come from, "resources" like this list are used for one of two things(possibly both): 1. to browse through and see if any discussion about the subject is interesting ( I think most of it is very good, intelligent, and full of Poetic Genius) different, or stimulating,& to further familiarity with the subject (like speaking french at home after studying it at school) and 2. to realize that some graduate school and post-graduate scholarly pursuits could enter one into a world that is way too scary even for the enthusiast. In looking over the last several months of postings here I've only seen one other posting besides Alex's asking for help on an assignment or paper for school. It seems clear that your student was not thinking clearly when he posted his request for help from this list but I really wonder if any answers he may have gotten would have been very helpful. I'm personally glad I didn't get an assignment like that from my professor. At any rate, a potential source of plagerized material? With all due respect, I suggest you look over the last 100 postings or so and see if there's a chance that anyone would want to plagerize anything that's been said. With controlled humility, Oody Petty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:44:07 -0800 From: reillys@ix.netcom.com (susan p. reilly) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Urizen Question Message-Id: <199611201644.IAA00184@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> Dear Bill, No paper this time around the conference circuit; I was helping Alan Richardson (as a former grad student of his) at his request, with organizational "junk"--registration, book orders, and general fetch-and-carry. I know that you were, appropriately enough, in the e-text session on Friday a.m. Since your session was not an open one, and since I had the opportunity to attend very few sessions, I am familiar with your concept of a new pedagogical practice only through the posting which includes your paper on the Web. You might want to post this address on the Blake server so that those interested can do some further exploration, as there seems to be some "resistance" to any dialogue on these matters at albion right now. You may also want to give the e-address for "Romantic Circles," where, I understand, the conference papers will appear (at least some of them) in about 3 week's time. What kinds of things are you learning about reading practices from your experiment? Regards, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:16:23 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Ruegg To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Urizen Question Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Oody Petty wrote: > Dear Bill, > > Please excuse my intrusion into this dialog, but since you went public > with your opinion, I will also. > Although I am just a "lowly" worm (student) I must speak out against any > presumption you may have that lists like this one are resources for > students. Hey, I'm a student worm too (though a graduate student worm may be a different species altogether), and I find it to be a resource! >I don't know what your university is like, but where I come > from, "resources" like this list are used for one of two things(possibly > both): I would define a resource as a source for information. Clearly the Blake list can be a source of information (among other things, such as a way of community building among people who like Blake). > In looking over the last several months of postings here I've only seen > one other posting besides Alex's asking for help on an assignment or > paper for school. I've been on the list for more than a year, and while requests from students for "help" are infrequent, there have been a significant number of them. These students stay on the list long enough to get an answer or to be sent packing and are never heard from again. >It seems clear that your student was not thinking > clearly when he posted his request for help from this list but I really > wonder if any answers he may have gotten would have been very helpful. Maybe and maybe not. Generally I have found the commentary on this list to be very astute. > I'm personally glad I didn't get an assignment like that from my > professor. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but I think it is a great question (remember, now, that I didn't author it--I'm not being immodest :)). Blake's "prophetic works" are difficult reading. The question simply asks students to identify something that makes their reading difficult and to grapple with the dislocating effect of this difficulty. Blake's work is complex (even the Songs are incredibly complex, when you look at them closely), and this question asks students to confront the complexity and explore it. > At any rate, a potential source of plagerized material? With all due > respect, I suggest you look over the last 100 postings or so and see if > there's a chance that anyone would want to plagerize anything that's been > said. The issue is not really whether the student would plagiarize from previous postings to the list, but rather he or she would get direct help from someone (and there are many here who would be capable of giving really interesting answers to the question) on the list in response to the plea for help. In this sense, the list is a *resource*. I want to reiterate that I have no problem with students being on the list--I was merely concerned as an instructor to see one of my students ask for direct help in answering a question he was supposed to tackle on his own and felt I needed to know what kind of help he had received. I have an institutional role to fulfill in this regard: plagiarism is a violation of the honor code. As I said in my last post, I appreciate the kind of help that was actually offered by members of the list. Thanks for the feedback, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:12:05 -0800 From: reillys@ix.netcom.com (susan p. reilly) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Blake sighting: Island in the Moon, videorecording Message-Id: <199611201812.KAA13039@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> My travels through the OCLC database (Online Library of Congress Catalog) have just informed me that another (albeit relatively unavailable) recording of *Island in the Moon,* (this time a videorecording), was produced in 1983. It is the work of Joseph Viscomi, Kirk Fry, and others too numerous to mention, and was performed at the Kaufman Theater at Columbia U. in April of '83. Copies are now archived at UC Berkeley and at Columbia. S. Reilly ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:47:37 +0000 From: David Rollison To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Urizen Question Message-Id: <3292E1C9.794A@marin.cc.ca.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arlene: Congratulations on a pithy, spunky and right-on statement--I hope Bill didn't deserve the full brunt of your ire (his webpage for his class is extemely cool) but, as a teacher, I couldn't agree with you more. Arlene Jay Petty wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Bill Ru > > > > I agree with your observations about mailing lists like this one being > > resources for students, as well as potential sources of > > plagiarized material. This is why I spoke in terms of restraint. As you > > point out, these resources can present teachers with a real problem--we > > can't be on _every_ list. > > Dear Bill, > > Please excuse my intrusion into this dialog, but since you went public > with your opinion, I will also. > Although I am just a "lowly" worm (student) I must speak out against any > presumption you may have that lists like this one are resources for > students. I don't know what your university is like, but where I come > from, "resources" like this list are used for one of two things(possibly > both): 1. to browse through and see if any discussion about the subject is > interesting ( I think most of it is very good, intelligent, and full of > Poetic Genius) different, or stimulating,& to further familiarity with > the subject (like speaking french at home after studying it at school) > and 2. to realize that some graduate school and post-graduate scholarly > pursuits could enter one into a world that is way too scary even for the > enthusiast. > > In looking over the last several months of postings here I've only seen > one other posting besides Alex's asking for help on an assignment or > paper for school. It seems clear that your student was not thinking > clearly when he posted his request for help from this list but I really > wonder if any answers he may have gotten would have been very helpful. > I'm personally glad I didn't get an assignment like that from my > professor. > > At any rate, a potential source of plagerized material? With all due > respect, I suggest you look over the last 100 postings or so and see if > there's a chance that anyone would want to plagerize anything that's been > said. > > With controlled humility, > > Oody Petty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:37:22, -0500 From: LVDP51A@prodigy.com ( PAUL SCANLON) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Urizen Question Message-Id: <199611202237.RAA23630@mime4.prodigy.com> Bill, I am unsure whether Arlene is alluding to me in her recent response regarding students; however, I do agree with some of what she says. As a novice grad student, I consider this mailing list as a medium through which I can listen to the conversations of readers far more knowledgeable and appreciative of Blake's writings than I am. Although I believe I am capable of entering into relation with Blake's ideas and writings, at this point, I still rely on this source to direct some of my questions and stimulate my levels of interpretation and appreciation. Although I recognize the opportunity this resource may have for those who wish to plagiarize, I hope you never consider a PhD or class syllabus a requirement for our viewing. Like Arlene, I consider this medium a location where I can come in some contact with others who are continually amazed and respectful of Blake's ideas and not worry about indulging egos, citing each individual's contribution to ideas, or feeling guilty over using some insight for my personal or professional development. Sincerely, Paul Scanlon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:10:57 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Ruegg To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Nassr e-text website Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks Susan for the chance to plug my stuff (co-authored with Ron Broglio). Do you know Ron? I think he also studied with Richardson at BC. The "papers" from the NASSR e-text panel are already online (we have to set the curve, you know). The address: http://www.inform.umd.edu:8080/RC/pages/cex/features/graver-panel.html Our project, complete with Blakean animations, is called "Romantic Text/Electronic Text." Ron and I would welcome any discussion of it here. Romantic Circles figures to be one of the first web sites to meet academy standards for lit-crit publications. It is online and growing at http://www.inform.umd.edu:8080/RC/rc.html * * * Bill Ruegg http://www.ucet.ufl.edu/~bruegg/ "The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction." --Will Blake On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, susan p. reilly wrote: > Dear Bill, > > No paper this time around the conference circuit; I was helping Alan > Richardson (as a former grad student of his) at his request, with > organizational "junk"--registration, book orders, and general > fetch-and-carry. > > I know that you were, appropriately enough, in the e-text session on > Friday a.m. Since your session was not an open one, and since I had > the opportunity to attend very few sessions, I am familiar with your > concept of a new pedagogical practice only through the posting which > includes your paper on the Web. You might want to post this address on > the Blake server so that those interested can do some further > exploration, as there seems to be some "resistance" to any dialogue > on these matters at albion right now. You may also want to give the > e-address > for "Romantic Circles," where, I understand, the conference papers > will appear (at least some of them) in about 3 week's time. > > What kinds of things are you learning about reading practices from your > experiment? > > Regards, > Susan > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:41:51 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Ruegg To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Urizen--a dismal stupor? Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Whoa! It seems I am doomed to be misunderstood in regards to this issue (I'm just a boy whose intentions are good--Oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood). First, let me say again that I am a student (sans Ph.D.), and like you, Arlene, David, and many others get a lot out of being on the list and have read some thought-provoking things about Blake here--even though I have rarely entered into the conversation of late (been lurking). I would never seek to exclude *anyone* (except spamers and flamers) from the list. Let me say emphatically (I thought I already said this, sigh) that I think it is great that students and others can join the list and partake in the Blakean revelry. I only wish more would. I don't think of the list as some hotbed of plagiarism. I have no problem with students getting the kind of help you describe. In fact, I think it's GREAT. Having said that, let me ask you to put yourself in my shoes for a moment. You see one of your students more or less directly asking for an answer to an assignment on the list. Wouldn't you want to know the kind of help he or she received? Wouldn't it be your duty as a teacher to make sure the student wasn't directly "quoting" from an answer provided to him or her? That's all I was trying to do. If you disagree with that motivation, so be it: let's stop this thread here, for I shan't be convinced I am wrong. Otherwise we are fundamentally in agreement. Best, Bill * * * Bill Ruegg http://www.ucet.ufl.edu/~bruegg/ "The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction." --Will Blake On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, PAUL SCANLON wrote: > Bill, > > I am unsure whether Arlene is alluding to me in her recent > response regarding students; however, I do agree with some of what > she says. As a novice grad student, I consider this mailing list as > a medium through which I can listen to the conversations of readers > far more knowledgeable and appreciative of Blake's writings than I am. > Although I believe I am capable of entering into relation with > Blake's ideas and writings, at this point, I still rely on this > source to direct some of my questions and stimulate my levels of > interpretation and appreciation. > Although I recognize the opportunity this resource may have for > those who wish to plagiarize, I hope you never consider a PhD or > class syllabus a requirement for our viewing. Like Arlene, I > consider this medium a location where I can come in some contact with > others who are continually amazed and respectful of Blake's ideas and > not worry about indulging egos, citing each individual's contribution > to ideas, or feeling guilty over using some insight for my personal > or professional development. > > Sincerely, > Paul Scanlon > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 00:53:00 CST From: Lance Massey To: blake@albion.com Subject: Unspecified Plate Message-Id: <9611210713.AA10196@uu6.psi.com> I had a discussion with a professor today in which we disagreed about whether t he female characters of a certain plate in Jerusalem were masculine-looking. I can't remember the plate number, but it is the one in which Los (I think it was Los--I don't have an Illuminated Blake or a computer fast enough to make hyper- Blake worthwhile) appears to be getting disemboweled by three female characters . They are arraged above Los, from left to right, with the one on the right pu lling a tube from Los' stomach and weeping. The women on the left and right appear to me to be very masculine, with broad s houlders, extremely well-developed musculature (one woman's breast even connect s, at the bottom, to her deltoid, giving the appearance not of a breast but of an extremely well-developed pectoral muscle), and generally large features. I asked if Blake had perhaps meant something by his representation and was stoppe d short (not in the Seinfeldian way) by my professor's statement that he saw no thing particularly masculine in the images. If you can figure out which plate I'm talking about, I'd be curious to hear wha t you think. -- Lance Massey. LMM777S@VMA.SMSU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:34:31 -0600 From: Mark Trevor Smith To: suzaraa@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Cc: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Blake's Characters: Ahania et al -Reply Message-Id: >>> Suzanne Araas Vesely 11/19/96 07:34am >>> [ concerning some feminists who read ] Jerusalem. what they see is that the final scene has no females in it, unless one counts the depiction of Enitharmon at her spindle. -- On plate 100, there is a very prominent female on the right of the plate. Is this Enitharmon at her spindle? Why does she not count? On plate 99 there is an enormous embrace between a male figure and a female figure, who is probably Jerusalem, who also received the last word of the poem, not to mention the title. Doesn't seem like absence of females to me. -- mts ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:29:09 -0600 From: Mark Trevor Smith To: suzaraa@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Cc: blake@albion.com Subject: mutual forgiveness Message-Id: >>> Suzanne Araas Vesely 11/18/96 12:54pm >>> I believe that Blake's view of the real Christian forgiveness as being _mutual_ forgiveness suggests this "feeling" of which Scott writes. It occurs between male and female. I think, though, that Blake's females tend to be more repentant than his males, perhaps ironically, or perhaps it is Blake making use of the long judaeochristian tradition of the female transgressor. --Also, perhaps, because in Paradise Lost, it is Eve who heroically first takes blame, just as it was she who heroically first suggested individual labor, confronted Satan, and decided to undertake the dangerous task of eating the apple. When the two bicker and mutally accuse each other after the fall, Eve first finds a way to break through and begin the mutual forgiveness. --mts -------------------------------- End of blake-d Digest V1996 Issue #134 **************************************