Content-Type: text/plain blake-d Digest Volume 1996 : Issue 113 Today's Topics: Re: Request for help Re: mailing list Thanks for help with The Mental Traveller Unidentified subject! Re: Unidentified subject! Re: Unidentified subject! Giles's Hymn Re: Unidentified subject! Giles's Hymn Again Re: Unidentified subject! Re: Request for help Re: Unidentified subject! Re: Unidentified subject! Re: Unidentified subject! A hymn in honour of William Blake re: Giles hymn Introduction (of myself) Re: Unidentified subject! Re: Unidentified subject! ----- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:15:37 -0500 From: jmichael@seraph1.sewanee.edu (J. Michael) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Request for help Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dear Blake-Listmembers (if anyone *is* out there presently), > I wonder if someone might be able to come up with a pertinent >citation or two for a pair of students (mine) who are writing a dialogued >research paper on Puritanism and "The Mental Traveller." Our library has an >extremely limited Blake collection--about a dozen books and nothing >basically on "The Mental Traveller." Does your library have Frye's _Fearful Symmetry_? (If it doesn't, make them order it!) You won't find any entire books on "The Mental Traveller," but Frye's discussion is a good starting point. Mary Lynn Johnson's bibliography in _The English Romantic Poets_ (ed. Frank Jordan--another necessary resource) also lists the following, among others (I don't have time to transcribe them all): John H. Sutherland, "Blake's 'Mental Traveller,'" _ELH_ 22 (1955) 136-147. It's reprinted in a little paperback called _Discussions of Blake_, but _ELH_ is where you're more likely to find it. Hazard Adams, _William Blake: A Reading of the Shorter Poems_ . Morton Paley, "The Female Babe and 'The Mental Traveller.'" _Studies in Romanticism_ 1962, revised in his book _Energy and the Imagination_. Martin Nurmi, "Joy, Love, and Innocence in Blake's 'The Mental Traveller'" _Studies in Romanticism_ 1963. For more recent sources, I would also check the MLA Bibliography if you have access to it. If you don't, let me know and I can run a quick search on the CD-Rom. Jennifer Michael ----- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:14:15 +0000 From: Sheila Markley To: blake@albion.com Cc: smarkley@imperium.net Subject: Re: mailing list Message-Id: <325F8B97.40EA@imperium.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheila Markley wrote: > > Please delete me from this list. > > Thank-you, smarkley@imperium.net ----- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 12:34:05 -0400 From: church@utb1.utb.edu (Karen Church) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Thanks for help with The Mental Traveller Message-Id: <9610121634.AA16877@uu6.psi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks so much to Tom Dillingham and Jennifer Michael for sharing your expertise and time with my Little Lambs -- and me! Karen Church University of Texas at Brownsville ----- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:08:01 -0400 (EDT) From: dpvintin@acpub.duke.edu (Giles David) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: <199610121908.PAA29012@jeter.acpub.duke.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Giles David Home: http://www.duke.edu/~dpvintin/latentangel/gd I am new to Blake-Online (and incidentally to the whole web thingy!) So if I make a muddle out of this, please forbear. I am a liturgist/hymnwriter living in Durham (North Carolina). My reason for subscribing is that I have a hymn I would like to offer for critical evaluation. If any Blake afficionados have the time to cast their eye on this, and give me some feedback, that would be great...the hymn is up for publication later this year, but several colleagues and writers suggested it might need an airing amongst Blake scholars first. When the hymn was first sung, I think there were only about 5 people out of the 300 present, who recognised the inspiration and reference...despite that, it seemed to stand its own ground reasonably well as a comment on postmodern theology in this form. See what you make of it...(no prizes for guessing the tune!)... A post modern hymn in honour of William Blake And can it be that in our time, we fathom out the truth unseen? Yet has all meaning flown away, and left a space where truth has been? And did the dream of life divine, shine long ago, but cease to thrill? And can we build our fences high among earth's deep confusion still? Bring me the verb of blazing grace! Bring me the noun as yet unknown! Bring me a sign! O, life retrace! Bring flame from which all life is thrown! I shall not rest from question's frown, nor answer smile, 'til earth embrace. 'Til every fence is broken down, and earth sees glory's hidden face. Now this the wisdom, this the song; this the hope shall free our age. And this the way all journey long, released from ancient scrpiture's page. The truth indwells! And grace invades! A voice invites: Come, hope inhale! Come earth, live now in Christ's one breath, Christ's presence shines beneath earth's veil. 1996 Giles David. ----- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:37:47 -0400 From: WaHu@aol.com To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: <961012173745_1346416074@emout18.mail.aol.com> Bring me the jar of mayonaisse, Now this the ham, now this the bread. What? nor ham? nor mayonaisse? Pass the chips instead. Pious Twaddle with only one meaning Can't contain a Truth worth gleaning. --Burma Shave Hugh Walthall wahu@aol.com ----- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:06:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Avery F. Gaskins" To: Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A little harsh, don't you think WaHu? Considering that some of Blake is not much better. "Little Lamb who made thee, etc." The spirit and substance are there. Even Homer nodded. Avery Gaskins ----- Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 01:00 EDT From: "Elisa E. Beshero 814 862-8914" To: blake@albion.com Subject: Giles's Hymn Message-Id: <9610130500.AA20142@uu6.psi.com> All ham and mayonaisse aside, I think your hymn is very beautiful--even though I don't personally ascribe to the theology it expresses. "I will not cease from mental fight/ Nor let the sword fall from my hands/ Til we have built Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land" echoes proudly and clearly through your brilliant adaptation of it-- which expresses a highly sensitive and appreciative reading of Blake's lines --and a view of how that building should be accomplished with nouns and verbs. (But what, indeed, _did_ Blake mean by "Jerusalem"? I'll be looking forward to hearing what Jennifer Michael and Paul Yoder have to say on the subject at the upcoming NASSR conference!) --Elisa ----- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:49:17 -0500 From: tomdill@wc.stephens.edu (TOM DILLINGHAM) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: <96101223491787@wc.stephens.edu> Ouch, Avery! Must we run through the Little Lamb debate again? WaHu already weighed in on that one, as I recall (or was it another skeptic?), and there seemed to be no hope of reconciliation among the competing sides. (No, I don't think "Little Lamb" is inferior if read in context; by itself it may be saccharine, but in the world of the Songs, it is perfection.) Anyway, we might agree that sometimes imitation is not the compliment it is perhaps intended to be. Tom Dillingham ----- Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 03:03 EDT From: "Elisa E. Beshero 814 862-8914" To: blake@albion.com Subject: Giles's Hymn Again Message-Id: <9610130704.AA29780@uu6.psi.com> Giles, --Incidentally, is there a hint of Gerard Manley Hopkins in those words, "indwells," "invades," "invites," and "inhale", all clustered in two lines? They made me think of Hopkins's ideas on "inscapes" and "instressing" as a means to grace. --Elisa - - The original note follows - - Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:08:01 -0400 (EDT) To: blake@albion.com From: dpvintin@acpub.duke.edu (Giles David) Resent-From: blake@albion.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: blake@albion.com From: Giles David Home: http://www.duke.edu/~dpvintin/latentangel/gd I am new to Blake-Online (and incidentally to the whole web thingy!) So if I make a muddle out of this, please forbear. I am a liturgist/hymnwriter living in Durham (North Carolina). My reason for subscribing is that I have a hymn I would like to offer for critical evaluation. If any Blake afficionados have the time to cast their eye on this, and give me some feedback, that would be great...the hymn is up for publication later this year, but several colleagues and writers suggested it might need an airing amongst Blake scholars first. When the hymn was first sung, I think there were only about 5 people out of the 300 present, who recognised the inspiration and reference...despite that, it seemed to stand its own ground reasonably well as a comment on postmodern theology in this form. See what you make of it...(no prizes for guessing the tune!)... A post modern hymn in honour of William Blake And can it be that in our time, we fathom out the truth unseen? Yet has all meaning flown away, and left a space where truth has been? And did the dream of life divine, shine long ago, but cease to thrill? And can we build our fences high among earth's deep confusion still? Bring me the verb of blazing grace! Bring me the noun as yet unknown! Bring me a sign! O, life retrace! Bring flame from which all life is thrown! I shall not rest from question's frown, nor answer smile, 'til earth embrace. 'Til every fence is broken down, and earth sees glory's hidden face. Now this the wisdom, this the song; this the hope shall free our age. And this the way all journey long, released from ancient scrpiture's page. The truth indwells! And grace invades! A voice invites: Come, hope inhale! Come earth, live now in Christ's one breath, Christ's presence shines beneath earth's veil. 1996 Giles David. ----- Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 17:59:57 -0700 From: "Joseph W. Murray" To: Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: <199610140053.RAA07519@post.everett.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Typical of the mean-spiritedness displayed by WaHu in his past postings. For someone to share their creation with others takes courage and leaves the giver vulnerable to others. I find Wa Hu typical of the ungracious, contentious times we live in. In the past I said that WaHu was an example of one who hides behind the internet to vent his spleen. I doubt very much if he would have the courage to say to a person's face what he dishes out on the blake list. He reminds me of Rush Limbaugh in that sense. Essentially a coward. And one who no doubt has never been in a physical brawl. You see, the side of the street I came up on you showed a modicum of respect to others and if you could'nt do that you did the best to ignore them. And if you didnt show this respect you would get your ass kicked until you learned. Cyber space is such a nice refuge for both moral and physical cowards. ---------- > From: WaHu@aol.com > To: blake@albion.com > Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! > Date: Saturday, October 12, 1996 2:37 PM > > Bring me the jar of mayonaisse, > Now this the ham, now this the bread. > What? nor ham? nor mayonaisse? > Pass the chips instead. > > Pious Twaddle with only one meaning > Can't contain a Truth worth gleaning. > --Burma Shave > > > > > Hugh Walthall wahu@aol.com > ----- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:30:41 +0930 From: Lida.Zibian@flinders.edu.au (Lida Zibian) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Request for help Message-Id: <9610140209.AA24880@gamgee.cc.flinders.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dear Blake-Listmembers (if anyone *is* out there presently), > I wonder if someone might be able to come up with a pertinent >citation or two for a pair of students (mine) who are writing a dialogued >research paper on Puritanism and "The Mental Traveller." Our library has an >extremely limited Blake collection--about a dozen books and nothing >basically on "The Mental Traveller." Does your library have Frye's _Fearful Symmetry_? (If it doesn't, make them order it!) You won't find any entire books on "The Mental Traveller," but Frye's discussion is a good starting point. Mary Lynn Johnson's bibliography in _The English Romantic Poets_ (ed. Frank Jordan--another necessary resource) also lists the following, among others (I don't have time to transcribe them all): John H. Sutherland, "Blake's 'Mental Traveller,'" _ELH_ 22 (1955) 136-147. It's reprinted in a little paperback called _Discussions of Blake_, but _ELH_ is where you're more likely to find it. Hazard Adams, _William Blake: A Reading of the Shorter Poems_ . Morton Paley, "The Female Babe and 'The Mental Traveller.'" _Studies in Romanticism_ 1962, revised in his book _Energy and the Imagination_. Martin Nurmi, "Joy, Love, and Innocence in Blake's 'The Mental Traveller'" _Studies in Romanticism_ 1963. For more recent sources, I would also check the MLA Bibliography if you have access to it. If you don't, let me know and I can run a quick search on the CD-Rom. Jennifer Michael ----- Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:33:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Avery F. Gaskins" To: Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Tom, In just what context were you reading the original post? She is no more im- tating Blake than he is imitating the superficial sacchrine pieties of the established church, not to mention the others. But I do understand the point. The former is sincere; the latter is ironic. I'm not sure WaHu understands the distinction. Avery Gaskins ----- Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:40:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Avery F. Gaskins" To: Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thank you, Joseph Murray. You said it better than I tried to. Avery Gaskins ----- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:23:16 -0500 From: tomdill@wc.stephens.edu (TOM DILLINGHAM) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: <96101400231594@wc.stephens.edu> I'm not so sure that WaHu's parody was meanspirited==certainly it was biting and dismissive, but what else is parody as a rule? If it takes courage to submit a "creation" to a public of strangers, I suppose that courage must suffice to deal with the possibility that the creation will be judged wanting. As a paraphrase of the _Milton_ prefatory hymn, the proffered "homage" seemed to me muddled and in need of greater independence from its inspiration. It's not at all clear, for example, whether fences are better newly erected or vigorously torn down. Whether my comments are cowardly and disrespectful is, I suppose, a matter for the audience to decide; certainly my comments lack the wit and bite of WaHu's posting (which is, I suppose, only one possible difference between him and me). For anyone so delicate of mind as to be distressed by parody, let me recommend a careful perusal of Blake's notebook poems and Island in the Moon. Blake did not, for all his fascination with forgiveness, suffer fools mildly. Tom Dillingham ----- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:45:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Izak/Gloudina Bouwer To: blake@albion.com Subject: A hymn in honour of William Blake Message-Id: <199610141245.IAA15978@host.ott.igs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you, Giles David, for sharing the hymn with us. I hope it will be sung on Blake's birthday, 28 November. You are busy with the building of GOLGONOOZA. On this listgroup Golgonooza is not mentioned much. To tell the truth, in a lot of Blake criticism the mention of the name Golgonooza is something to be avoided, or to get past as quickly as possible, if you have to mention it. That in spite of the fact that Blake gave minute attention to its structure and to its structuring. Is it that there is something peculiarly static in the style of western academic thinking ( programmed like their favourite machines as on/off, either/or) that makes it so easy to pass judgment? And are value judgments always the required way to go? Especially when somebody is invi- ting you to help build Golgonooza. I do not feel qualified to pass judgment on this quite beautiful hymn. However, since in some spots I feel a certain unease, I have taken the liberty of typing out a version slightly altered in some places, just for interest's sake. And can it be that in our time we still can fathom truth unseen, even when meaning flies away and leaves a space where truth has been? And did the dream of life divine shine long ago, but cease to thrill? And do we build our fences high among earth's deep confusion still? Bring me the verb of blazing grace! Bring me the noun as yet unknown! Bring me a sign! O, life retrace, bring flame from which all life is thrown. I shall not rest from question's frown, nor answer smile, 'til earth embrace, 'Til every fence is broken down, and earth sees glory's hidden face. Now this the wisdom, this the song; this is the hope shall free our age. And this the way all journey long, released from ancient scripture's page. The truth indwells! And grace invades! A voice invites: Come, hope inhale! Come earth, live now as Christ's own breath, Christ's presence shines within earth's veil. Gloudina Bouwer ----- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:53:03 -0400 (EDT) From: dpvintin@acpub.duke.edu (Giles David) To: blake@albion.com Subject: re: Giles hymn Message-Id: <199610141553.LAA05700@jeter.acpub.duke.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On return from a weekend's conference, I find I have released a flurry of activity...and sparked ancient feuds. But I notice from the archives, that Blake-Online thrives on a fair ammount of bloodletting. Thanks for the responses to the hymn, condimentary and otherwise. Incidentally, I particularly enjoyed "mayonaisse" - such a venomous-sounding mispelling as can only have been deliberate. Nice touch! If only I could construct each hymn as quickly, and with as much wit. Elisa, yes there is some reference to Hopkins in that final verse. In addition to which I've drawn upon a line from one of George Macleod's prayers: "by grace, invade us". I'd be interested to hear your theological assessment, as you said you did not ascribe to the views expressed in the song. The praise you offer, stands in marked contrast to the badinage of subtle insults that have accrued elsewhere on my e-mail over the weekend. And from the responses in general, I get the distinct picture, that the hymn should be retitled, "...in abject apology to William Blake"! Or better still, that it should never see the light of day. Is it so really so desperate? I can take it like a man - or the woman that Avery mistakenly thinks me. By the way, Avery, could you say more about Blake's original sentiment - was it a conceit of irony as I've always thought it to be? He does seem the most subversive writer to have crept in between the sheets of English hymnals. And please, no street brawls on my account. Although I can clearly see I've stepped into a bit of a bear-garden, I'm not afraid of the bears...or the YaHu's. Giles D. ----- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:01:21 +0100 From: Jen Shepherd To: blake@albion.com Cc: jen@ronshep.ftech.co.uk Subject: Introduction (of myself) Message-Id: <326263D1.1A92@bigfoot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello To quote Giles David - "I am new to Blake-Online" too. I am also quite new to Blake, but this doesn=92t lessen my interest! I=92= m currently studying Blake, amongst others, within my English Literature A-Level. At the moment, I=92m working on a presentation, which will lead into a discussion on Blake=92s philosophies in general, with particular referenc= e to the poem =91Earth=92s Answer=92 and the two =91Introduction=92 poems i= n =91Song=92s of Innocence and Experience=92. As for "an airing amongst Blake scholars" (in regard to Giles=92 hymn) I=92= d hardly suggest that could include me! Even so, I just wanted to say that having read it, I like it. I won=92t pretend to be one of the original 'one in sixty' who understood it=92s intended meaning, but as far as it=92= s meanings for me personally go - I like it very much. Jen ----- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:44:31 -0700 From: "Joseph W. Murray" To: Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: <199610141738.KAA14033@post.everett.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dont recall reading your posting and my comments were directed soley to WaHu as to disrespect ,meanspiritedness, and being cowardly. Primarily the snide tone and arrogance or WaHu's postings is what irritates me. Parody is best directed at targets much more deserving than the subject of this attack. The author of the hymn-(its merits aside) was requesting honest forthright criticism . What Wa Hu offered was neither. It seems to me that parody like satire is best directed toward those that need deflating. A new member who in innocence submits what they've created to be mocked by one who appears to me to snipe at others from a position of safety appears to me to be cowardly. After all he didnt even address his subject directly. Reminds me of a backbiter laughing to his cohorts in order to feel superior to someone. And as far as Blake not suffering fools mildly, didn't Jesus say something about calling anyone a fool. Who is the fool you are referring to in this instance? The hymnwriter? Myself? To tell you the truth I find many of the postings on the blake list to be not worth the bother to read. I did bother to read a hymn submitted by a new member. I don't recall too many original works submitted by others on the list.Perhaps I'm wrong in this assumption. If Wa Hu wanted to offer honest criticism ,which was what the submitter asked for, why didn't he reply in private instead of publicly trying to humiliate a member of the list. And btw you appear to set up Blake as some kind of role model as far as behavior in not suffering fool's mildly. From what I've gathered in the past WAHu considers Blake demented at best. Am I wrong in this assumption?And while I'm on an Irish tirade, don't worry about about the delicate state of my mind. Like bluesman Skip James said to the young fellow who was trying to show him up "I've been and gone to places you'll never see". I don't like bullies-never have. Joe Murray to > To: blake@albion.com > Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! > Date: Sunday, October 13, 1996 10:23 PM > > I'm not so sure that WaHu's parody was meanspirited==certainly it was > biting and dismissive, but what else is parody as a rule? If it takes > courage to submit a "creation" to a public of strangers, I suppose > that courage must suffice to deal with the possibility that the > creation will be judged wanting. As a paraphrase of the _Milton_ > prefatory hymn, the proffered "homage" seemed to me muddled and > in need of greater independence from its inspiration. It's not > at all clear, for example, whether fences are better newly > erected or vigorously torn down. Whether my comments are > cowardly and disrespectful is, I suppose, a matter for the > audience to decide; certainly my comments lack the wit and > bite of WaHu's posting (which is, I suppose, only one possible > difference between him and me). For anyone so delicate of > mind as to be distressed by parody, let me recommend a careful > perusal of Blake's notebook poems and Island in the Moon. > Blake did not, for all his fascination with forgiveness, > suffer fools mildly. > Tom Dillingham ----- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:29:04 -0400 (EDT) From: dpvintin@acpub.duke.edu (Giles David) To: blake@albion.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: <199610142029.QAA26053@jeter.acpub.duke.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joseph I think the fool referred to by Tom was I. Whoever...if the fool were to persist in his folly he would become wise. Giles